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in January this year at the Utah Valley

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University conference of fraud by the

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faculty which had an ethical slant to it

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so I no one's interested in ethics and

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rocky or whether bad people but nothing

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much time on that part of it I just tell

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him to sit there and wait for the food

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to come less fall a TV you okay and we

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had that in our department we had the

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Dean of engineering at the University of

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Utah speak to our specials our topic

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students in what as one of the weekly

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invited speakers in our lecture series

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as part of his presentation he showed a

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slide that depicted the numbers of

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annual PhD production by country over

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time they all showing a shallow increase

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until the last few years when China's

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production began to increase

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significantly beyond all the other

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countries a China website the people's

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daily online access January 18th had an

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article entitled China may have more

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PhDs than the u.s. in 2010 we can easily

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ask if they are quality phd's how the

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article chronicles and major initiative

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in China in 1981 to modernize academic

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degree programs they also call for major

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emphasis in quality of advanced degrees

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and i quote academic accomplishment

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should be the critical standard for

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judging the candidates qualifications

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now it's interesting to know this just

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ended up here a minute whoops only seems

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like everybody's having that problem

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here's China this is green is Japan and

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this is the United States not very

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impressive and this light green is South

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that this statement from the official

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that Chinese media source raises some

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questions was that comment in that

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particular source because there were

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quality problems that need to be

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corrected or was it just another Mon

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ishment to make sure that improvements

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in the number of degrees must be

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accompanied accompanied by diligence and

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quality of programs people in my

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university that have been another had

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short stints in China universities tell

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me that the quality of their programs is

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good maybe it's time for us on the rest

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to modernize our programs and eliminate

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in effect even hurtful parts of the

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mr. comment there as I have attempted to

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complete PhD let's see it was supposed

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to go 1 PhD work has become apparent

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that there are a large number of

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candidates that are PhD abd all but

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dissertation in becoming aware of

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individual cases the reasons for many

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appear unfair even in those that have

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completed the process and been on one of

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the PhD the answer to the title question

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has always been a resounding yes many

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candidates are beset with endless

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rewrites mentor change of subject

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changes and other delays for no apparent

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valid reasons many of these resultant

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unwarranted repeated tuition payments

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PhD programs are filled with numerous

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individually produced research papers

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and comprehensive exams that require

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significant research activities at the

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time one gets to the dissertation the

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individual candidate is well versed in

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research activity now go back to China

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since they rapidly surpassing every

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country's we have to ask ourselves do we

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possibly think that they are achieving

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these results by endless rewrites mental

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changes subject changes and temporal

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however today's world is all about teams

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in fact many research funding

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organizations require a team approach

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with detailed credentials of all team

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members in order to get funding the PhD

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process with current dissertation

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requirements as found in many

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universities does not adequately prepare

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might informal conversations with

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numerous individuals indicate that there

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are significant problems in the process

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the confirming research I'm doing

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involves interviewing many PhDs and PhD

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a BDS regarding their experience and

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eliciting ideas for modernizing the

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process I've also found problems of a

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similar nature and some masters level

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programs whoops there we go I recently

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reviewed a large heavy thick book

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kinetica theory in business bible camp

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and bali and is impressed by the concept

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of fairness seemed to permeate most of

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the ethical theories dr. Peterson man

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and his investigations into what causes

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community and individual outrage

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outlines 20 hot buttons that generate

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outrage if you're making people outraged

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and what you do to them it seems obvious

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that fairness is an issue in these

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Salmons number nine on his list

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addresses fairness specifically Sandman

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also indicates that outrage is always

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emotional and often irrational to

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deliver the action that caused the

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outrage however he also points out it is

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always the real when I was in a master's

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program in the tech in technology at

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Eastern Michigan University the school

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sponsored what was called customer

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service week the general idea was that

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the students would pay tuition other

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customers

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in the association and the faculty and

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administration are there to provide

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customer service by doing an excellent

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job and all the individual activities in

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making their customers happy in a

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regular business fashion that involves

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not generating outrage among the

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customers who pay their salaries or

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tuitions without losing rigger in the

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process there are some of the uses for

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the past several centuries an integral

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part of the ph.d program has been just

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the dissertation it has been a useful

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tool to teach people how to do research

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in a rigorous fashion and how to utilize

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standardized procedures to present

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information and research results in a

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credible fashion whether there appears

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to be an increasing number of people who

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complete other classes the comprehensive

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exams get started into the dissertation

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process and then stop they are PhD abd

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all but dissertation why is this so well

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there are many reasons some of them are

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financial but informal conversations

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with many of the people I've talked to

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that in this category in several who did

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evidence eventually get their PhDs get

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fed up with the harassment that's part

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of numerous programs they're subjected

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to having large portions of the

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dissertation tentatively approved only

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to find out that someone says they need

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to rewrite the whole thing this offering

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goes back and forth several times only

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to have what they originally had done to

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be the final approved version this

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happened to my son and what the second

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time that happened he said no and then

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he followed requisite this is not your

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dissertation this is my dissertation and

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I am NOT going to change it and they

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this announcement also may take the form

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of mental changes who do not like your

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subject changes in the approved subject

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and mental changes that for vagrant that

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are for vague reasons an example of this

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was in my in my case a mentor who was

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very excited in personally working with

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me and very excited about my subject in

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fact she suggested the subject and you

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and remember this one oh then she said I

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don't think I'm the person to be working

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with you remember that you talked about

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that and then said later or I am

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personally acquainted with civil it has

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experienced this in fact my last mentor

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said we do that on purpose just to see

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how much you'll take I met an earlier

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that said paraphrasing if I had to go

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through that process so do you and you

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know who I'm talking about right if your

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program there it is very doubtful that

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this is relevant to the capabilities of

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the person it's illogical another reason

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is financial the process is purposely

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strung out so the candidate will have to

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register for another semester at several

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thousand dollars a semester one

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candidate was on the verge of having his

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chapter 2 approved and was told to fix a

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few minor items the deadline is fast

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approaching and after he fixed the six

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minor items he was told that chapter is

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inadequate and he had to come up with

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about 50 more references this bumped him

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into the next semester on another three

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thousand dollars this was essentially my

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experience as mentors delayed responses

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to get the next semester and another

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thirty three hundred dollars a year

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later this other man who just told you

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about at this point in time still has

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not had his dissertation approved these

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problems are coupled with the increase

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the lack of relevance of the final

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product the real world there are many

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that just refused to play the game in

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one relevance issue is that there they

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have and in fact forty-six percent of

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all academic journals in the creativity

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area have more than one author indeed in

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in my 20 patents all or more than one

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author except one and that's 95%

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multiple authors a surveyor dissertation

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on the hard science medical field so

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that ninety-four percent of the cited

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works were multiple authors if the

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dissertation is to prepare one for

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publication that fell short because the

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royal is about teams in fact to have a

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successful grant for research for a

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major funding organization such as NIH

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and NSF all members of the research team

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must be named with credentials and what

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each will continue to the project or

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they will get the money when can

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reasonably say that there are single

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work author published of the 15 PhD

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level classes I took all required a

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well-researched 20 to 40 page paper and

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the classes had shorter weekly projects

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throughout the 15-week term in addition

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the comprehensive exam papers totaled

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over 60 pages of oil resource

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information one will be hard-pressed to

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say that the curriculum does not prepare

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the candidate for that single author

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academic papers it is true that many

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candidates have not done any real real

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research from that standpoint of

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research project and help account the

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candidates get research skills however

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the harassment and delays do not improve

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the quality nor teach any important

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skills I spoke to a PhD from Stanford

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and he told me that no such harassment

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d'alene took place in his case and there

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are other universities and I think the

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person i know from eastern michigan did

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not have that experience either she went

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right through hers this focus on their

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focus in Stanford was unhealthy

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McCarron they get through the research

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and get done quickly this person became

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a productive researcher two to three

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years before others who put up with the

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harassment and delaying programs he's

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also a world-renowned expert in his

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field yes it feels the dissertation

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process that most are subjected to his

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but badly broken also the retired state

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superintendent of schools in Utah dr.

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patty Harrington told me with permission

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to user name that had she known what the

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dissertation process was going to be

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like she would not have continued the

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Hoffman is also evident in the defense

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of the dissertation process that takes

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place one candidate who earned a

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master's degree made his defense

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presentation with his all use he

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recorded the session after the questions

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by the committee were done he was

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excused from the room while they made

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their decision the recorder was

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deliberately left running an hour so

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later they called him back and told him

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he passed when he discovered the

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discussion on his recorder and he

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replayed it he found that only 10

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minutes was about his the discussion of

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his his work and the rest of it was just

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being they was just they just made him

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sweat I think the delaying tactics

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result in the dissertation being made

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nearly obsolete in many cases by the

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time is published is well known at the

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rate of production of new technology and

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we're well aware of that in here is on

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an exponential curve and if that's the

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case and we look at that curve back

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there about what we're doing in the

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United States and some in some cases of

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Western Europe we simply do not have

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time to go through those kinds of abuses

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and some of the abuses are especially

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hard

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spoke with got all A's in her classes

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pastor comps got a dissertation approved

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and then was told that she had a

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two-month residency that she had to

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complete before they were the road the

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degree her first mentor made improper

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sexual advances and gave her an

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unsatisfactory rating because she

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refused his advances she changed mentors

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and previously previous experienced

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totally devastated her she was denied

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approval because she was not congenial

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enough she got a job as a receptionist

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of the local university and was quickly

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promoted because of her obvious talent

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another person in the master's program

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in earth sciences in an Eastern

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University completed all class work

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except to class in mineralogy he was

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told he could not graduate because he

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did not pass the class when he asked

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what was wrong they could or would not

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produce the test he supposedly failed

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and they refused to let him take the

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class over when hit when he asked when I

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asked him what the reason was he said it

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was political he was conservative and

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that University was liberal and I

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suppose there are political reasons the

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other way around also well now in

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America and our Western countries we

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simply cannot afford to use ineffective

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in delaying tactics and discriminatory

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practices in the advanced degree process

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we cannot afford to put talented people

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in positions that do not utilize their

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talents it is a waste of human assets

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knowledge creation of the world are

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moving too fast to have antiquated

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programs modernization of the process is

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critical standards to prevent harassment

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I'm not sure oh here we go the

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educational regular an advanced degree

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helps an individual to better cope with

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the challenges of life both

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professionally and personally however

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society hands us all more than enough

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difficulties to teach us that life is

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hard and often unfair and discriminatory

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we don't need our education is to

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amplify on that those of us of the SSC

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are especially aware of this concerning

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much of a research phony rigor in the

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educational process is not needed in

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this counterproductive and obstructive

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to innovation we should be on the

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forefront to modernize the process hey

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questions oh good here comes York I have

361
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well um just incidentally I'm another

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one of those people who sailed through

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the degree process the way it's supposed

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to work without any harassment but it

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strikes me in particular that most of

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the MPS is that you have described in

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your talk are exactly what it says

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unlabeled opposes other things that

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shouldn't happen um and it's saying it

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it seems from the description that's not

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so much that the dissertation process is

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broken as that we're not running a

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possible run yeah I we're good good good

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point yeah hi there's another layer of

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abuse here and that's at the postdoc

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level my son was a postdoc in physics at

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Berkeley for a number of years and what

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he told me is that the postdocs and

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graduate students do the research the

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professor

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on publish it under his own name and and

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then he added and when their offense

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goes to a conference to present it the

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top he makes the whole group meet and

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the postdocs and graduate explain the

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research presents it as his own work

387
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when I asked my why damn put up with

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that kind of a system as well they need

389
00:19:46,030 --> 00:19:41,700
the profs recommendation to get jobs so

390
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it's a kind of blackmail yeah right good

391
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one more yo sure it's not just that the

392
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doctor level a friend of mine was

393
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working in masters in a disciplinary

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program history of science and geology

395
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and after he had all his research done

396
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for the Masters his professor stole it

397
00:20:06,290 --> 00:20:04,740
now and so he couldn't use it because it

398
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:06,300
was old data because his professor

399
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:09,450
published his data and but there's a

400
00:20:17,390 --> 00:20:12,810
certain revenge to this because it was

401
00:20:22,460 --> 00:20:17,400
the 1978 or 79 and his data was to show

402
00:20:25,970 --> 00:20:22,470
the plate tectonics was unreal yeah I

403
00:20:28,220 --> 00:20:25,980
ran into a guy I ever talked in a Sunday

404
00:20:30,020 --> 00:20:28,230
School class one time and showed the

405
00:20:33,410 --> 00:20:30,030
plate tectonics is an international

406
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:33,420
geophysical year ago showed they were

407
00:20:36,830 --> 00:20:34,890
talking about plate tectonics and there

408
00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:36,840
was a geologist in there they had a fit

409
00:20:40,930 --> 00:20:38,130
he went to him he thrown out of the

410
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church one thing at one comment that

411
00:20:47,870 --> 00:20:45,000
comment on the Chinese data I thought

412
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maybe that was what the Europe was going

413
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:50,810
to comment about and I was ready for him

414
00:20:59,210 --> 00:20:57,210
the the population of China is way far

415
00:21:01,550 --> 00:20:59,220
and a bad lot of the United States and

416
00:21:04,510 --> 00:21:01,560
other countries and so you can say that

417
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:04,520
the numbers there might might be skewed

418
00:21:09,020 --> 00:21:06,930
the comparison might be skewed because

419
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of their high population but it's also

420
00:21:19,010 --> 00:21:17,100
well to note that the the demographics

421
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:19,020
of China are vastly different than they

422
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:20,610
are the United States there's a lot of

423
00:21:26,090 --> 00:21:22,650
third world countries embedded in China

424
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:26,100
now my research project some of you have

425
00:21:32,230 --> 00:21:30,650
picked up as some of the questionnaires

426
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:32,240
I have some here i would appreciate

427
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:34,610
anybody who's had experiences both good

428
00:21:40,780 --> 00:21:38,330
and bad to pick up one of the forms and

429
00:21:43,060 --> 00:21:40,790
mail it in to me so that maybe we can